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FW Corps being War Dec'd

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Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:24:00 - [1] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine Do you have a better solution? Yep. Player corps faced with a wardec make a choice between: A. Fight back. B. Get help. C. Run away. D. Surrender. And stop asking for the Eve wardec system to be broken in your favour because you have joined a "PVP" Faction "WAR" and have gotten (omg) wardecced. We don't need a solution because there isn't a problem. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:50:00 - [2] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Would the war mechanics be broken if my alliance could simply declare war on ONE corp of another alliance... thus in return that alliance could not help out that ONE corp? As you have been told about 1001 times in half as many threads. FW Militias are NOT alliances. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:53:00 - [3] Originally by: Innsu Ok 50 man miltia fleet, 1 poor sod in a war dec corp, gets taken out while the rest of the fleet are helpless and cant help him. That is wrong ! Its absolutely right. If you are in the NPC militia corp you have no right to fire without concord intervention on a player corp in empire outside the militia. You are protected by the npc corp membership - price of that protection is impotence in the situation you describe. If you consider that price is too high then join a player corp and do something about it. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:02:00 - [4] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/08/2008 18:02:53 Originally by: Innsu Ok, i understand that, though player corps are directly war dec'ing FW player corps to swing the tide of the war . . . Yep and thats entirely how its supposed to work. Both sides could hire mercenaries to strike at the other from the respective hisec (as is happening) and 3rd parties could involve themselves for whatever reasons they choose. And of course since Militias are not Alliances any corporation or alliance could still have valid reason to target a corporation affiliated with a Militia for personal reasons. You can't alter that without breaking eve and making the militia a haven for wardec avoidance exploit. The answers to the fake "problem" discussed in the op are already on offer. A. Fight back. B. Get help. C. Run away. D. Surrender. All the tools are already in place and Militia affiliation should in nowise give additional protection against wardecs to individual corps. FW does have problems (that we've already helped to point out). But this isn't one of them. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:15:00 - [5] Originally by: Innsu Ok Jade, i see what your getting at :)ive only been doing in 10 days or something, lets see how it pans out Nice to see somebody open to reasoned debate to be honest. Thanks for that. As for the long term - I think FW will be fine, but what needs to happen is the rollout of additional rewards for militia members (corps and individuals) that give them reason to be in the firing line for more than just medals. Some nice loyalty point stores, special mods and ships and such. Basically a reason to fight. If there is an incentive to stay in and handle adversity we'll see a better response to the challenge of the environment and more robust way of facing up to wardecs. At the moment you have a weird situation where people can just skip to the npc militia for near complete protection and the corps do have problems against wardecs because a) they don't want to fight, b) nobody will help them fight, and c) there isn't a fiscal motive for them remaining in the militia anyways. This tends to lead to collapse and running away and dissolution in adversity and snowballs because the former members of defeated corps join other corps with a litany of defeatist carping and spread poor morale like a psychic plague. I think the solution is make being a corp in the militia more profitable - make the missions and plexing more rewarding - make it something worth fighting to retain access too. I think corp members in the militias should get more loyalty points than npc militia members since they are more vulnerable. Something like that. Give people a reason to fight and fight hard and the game benefits. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:31:00 - [6] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine There is no reason for corporations to join the militias if doing so just puts them at a disadvantage in the part of the game that they're trying to participate in. Why would they do so, and be a valid war target for the entire opposing militia, and be hindered in the opposing militia's high-sec space, when they can simply war-dec one corp in the opposing milita and be immune from both? Just because you cannot see the reason doesn't mean there isn't one. Why are Outbreak involved in the Minmatar militia as a corp? They don't seem to be having these "problems". Why are Dead Parrots involved in the Gallente miltiia as a corp? They seem to be doing pretty well. Why are Slackers involved in the Amarrian militia as a corp - you get the idea. Corporations join militias for the benefits of being corporations (corp hangers/corp assets/wallets/corp channels and command and control) and what they get for joining as a corp is access to the FW militia content (medals/rewards/war-room etc) and free wardecs vs the enemy militia and all associated corps. Their vulnerability is the ordinary vulnerability they have outside the militia association to empire wardecs. It costs ISK to wardec individual corps from outside the militia - that is the disadvantage of doing it that way. Eve is about choices and variety - there are many ways to prosecute a war and its your choice as to how you go about it. Quote: This is clearly not the dev's vision for FW. Their vision is being contravened by s few wise-guys in the game who think they're brilliant and that everyone else, including the devs, aren't. What are the devs going to do about it? I think you are overstating a personal issue that annoys you because you are from a corporation that probably can't handle the demands of faction warfare on the corp level. Its clearly not an issue for other corps (outbreak, parrots, slackers and many many others) so its wrong for you to state this false problem like a universal truth. Its also wrong for you to attempt to speak on behalf of other player's motives - you don't understand them, you have no neccessary insight so I'd ask you to avoid such speculations because they don't help the discussion or the general mood of constructive debate. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:41:00 - [7] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/08/2008 18:43:09 Originally by: Somealt Ofmine If empire corps are looking for profit they'll keep running L4s. The reason corps join FW is to compete, and win, against other players, not collect loyalty points. As long as you have corps that can influence the outcome without subjecting themselves to the same ristrictions and risks as the milita corps. There is no reason to join the militia. It just gimps you. It's broken. Right, or wrong? You are wrong. Mainly because you have no perspective or right to tell us why other corps join FW. You don't know is the simple truth. You know why your main's corp did (I suspect) but you simply cannot know why other players make that choice. Everyone does things for different reasons and generalizations like the one you use above doesn't help in slightest. I sense you are frustrated most likely with the performance of your main character's corp in the FW setting (which is probably why you choose to use an alt to continue this discussion to protect the main's identity) and you're probably just passing on that frustration to this debate but its not really helping. All thats evident is the frustration and not the logic or understanding of the situation. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:52:00 - [8] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine I come from a corporation that doesn't give a damn about FW. I'm advocating for the good of the game, which you should be doing, but are not. I simply don't believe you I'm afraid. I find your use of an alt speaks the direct opposite - my past experience of these forums teaches me that people use alts to troll and flame and stir trouble - never to advocate issues for the good of the game. Perhaps come back with your main and lets talk. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:57:00 - [9] Originally by: Pithecanthropus ... its still insulting to hear you speak about others like you know all. You don't. I can't know you because you are hiding your identity behind a posting alt. Hence I can't judge your past commitment or posting record, I can't know your in-game history, I can't tell if you are serious or just trolling continually to derail threads. You are pretty much the perfect illustration of why posting with alts is destroying debate on these forums. You can't be insulted really because you don't have an identity here. Its just an act. I wish you'd post with a real character so people could judge you on past deeds and actions and your bias (or lack therein) could be seen. As is its a bit pointless. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:25:00 - [10] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/08/2008 19:25:24 Originally by: Somealt Ofmine I'm afraid your half-vast experience with the forums is leading you atray. I have never posted with my main in 5 years. I have always posted with various alts, and I post on a wide range of subjects about the game, just as passionately as I'm posting here. Go look at what I have to say about 0.0 sov, for example. And yet, because you are posting with an alt why would anyone believe you? Your posting on this particular alt has been abrasive and rude, you've been unwilling to see other people's points and dogmatically stated the same old disproved theories with nothing but growing irritation to mark your participation in the topic. You are pretty much soapboxing with nothing but your own voice and a couple of other alts to back you up? (are those yours as well? who knows) Any which way its simply not very persuasive. I think you have made a bad mistake to keep your identity hidden for five yours. You should have been building a reputation that people could refer too when considering your points of view. Instead you currently don't have one. I'd suggest you begin posting with your main now and begin the task of gaining the credibility you need to take the kind of positions you have been taking. Anyways, its your choice end of the day. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:29:00 - [11] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Truth is... I've played over 5 years... longer than you... I've been through every patch, every nerf, I've done the pirate, I've done the carebear, I've done it all. I'm trained in a wide variety of skills to do just about anything this game can offer. I've been in several alliances, I've been out in 0.0... I've ran POS, I've FC'd, I've scouted, I've done large fleets, nano fleets, POS warfare... yada, yada, yada... I may not be a popular name among Eve, but I've done probably far more than you have ever done. Period. But again, because you are hiding behind an alt identity why should anybody believe you? I can put on a party mask and claim to be the king of Siam but without the retinue and bank account sureties its just words. See the problem, you could be anyone - even the other alts in this thread. So all your claims of experience and game knowledge are ultimately just beyond proof or recognition. All I've see of you is this alt and all this alt has done is post ill-informed opinions and boasted how good a troll you are. That really doesn't convince people to take you seriously. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:40:00 - [12] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/08/2008 19:44:43 Originally by: LaVista Vista Aren't you supposed to be representing the community rather than judging the community? Hell, even I am an alt. Why don't you have a go at me? I'll save that till your next election campaign. But on topic, if you feel that we should be taking alts seriously when they claim to have 5 years of experience in every aspect of the game and then post stuff showing they have no clear understanding of Eve or the mechanics they are talking about then I disagree. I reserve my right (which is common to any other Eve player) to disregard their input as invalid and unhelpful - Eve as single server game with persistent identity for characters gives us the ability to earn and stand on our reputations. I don't respect people who are afraid of their reputations and choose to hide them behind alts. And so yep I don't like or trust opinions hidden behind alt identities - sorry if this offends your sensibilities but there it is and yep - come next election I won't be voting for you for many reasons but up there amongst them is the fact that you are an alt and didn't have the guts to run with your main identity. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Pithecanthropus I've done far more and have experienced far more than you ever have. I've seen this game for everyone since day one... I've dealt with the bad, and admire the good... Run for election with your main then. Thats my advise. Lets see how you do - if you are so much better than me you should be able to win the Chair position easily. With regard to this thread its a defunct argument. Its gone round a couple of hundred times already with the same result. No support. Anyways, hope to see you on the ballot sheet in September I guess. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 20:22:00 - [14] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Originally by: Jade Constantine Anyways, hope to see you on the ballot sheet in September I guess. You wouldn't know me if I was! ... and wouldn't that be the biggest ironic turn-around slap in the face best thing ever IF YOU VOTED FOR ME! I can assure you thats very unlikely :) Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.29 00:23:00 - [15] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 29/08/2008 00:24:36 Originally by: Somealt Ofmine As soon as pirate corps and Goon alts catch onto how easy it is to grief FW fleets with this little tactic, the real fun will start, and you may see the very same people who are supporting it now crying for their mommy. The irony is of course that its mostly goon-alts currently complaining about being wardecced in Caldari militia corps in all these threads. But then I imagine you already knew that didn't you? Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.09.09 19:49:00 - [16] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 09/09/2008 19:51:26 I disagree of course. I will never consider the opinion of a posting alt to be the equal of a character with a fully-developed in-game reputation. I consider anonymity to be counterproductive to the interests of good political debate. Hence I really won't be taking the opinions of alt-posters seriously. As for your opinion about FW corps being made immune to wardecs. You are simply wrong. Its not a change that is in any way shape or form in the interests of Eve online. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.09.09 20:52:00 - [17] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 09/09/2008 20:57:12 Originally by: Red Raider It's an opinion Jade. It cant be wrong. Yes it can. And yes it is. FW corps being made immune to wardecs would not be in the general good of eve. This thread shows its only a handful of alts in favour of this move - you all sound very similar to each other and you all make your point with a mix of bad information, ill-formed opinions, personal attacks and insults your stock in trade. But end of the day you are still completely wrong. Not sure what kind of weird liberal non-judgmental form of education you attended but if I'd handed in a paper claiming it was my opinion that the world was shaped like a cheese sandwich then my teacher would hand back a score of zero - not plaudits for the attempt and a condescending commentary: "well done! You might not have gotten the correct answer but you are differently right!" This is a debating forum. If you put your name (even an assumed one) to a terrible opinion you will get refuted and called on it.

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